thomson safari controversy
more, You seem to have JavaScript disabled. They can hunt out of season, without a professional hunter in their cars." The attorney general on Thursday jumped into the dispute, accusing local officials in Chester and Orange County of violating fair housing laws and discriminating against the Hasidic community, and petitioning a judge to join a lawsuit filed earlier this year by the Greens at Chester, the developer. &Beyond hired lawyers to respond to the revocation notice, and Ferguson wrote a letter to the commissioner making his case, but, he told me in late August, "we haven't heard anythingit's still hanging over our heads." The plaintiffs argue that because the land was not used by TB for 19 years, in accordance with Tanzanian land law, it had reverted back to common village ownership. Villagers say that they were beaten by the companys security guards, arrested for trespassing when they crossed the property, and denied access to grazing land and water for their cattle. To this day, no building permits for houses have been granted, although roads and other infrastructure have been completed. If we were to have done any of these things, youd think that Rick and I would be in jail by now, Wineland said. Rick Thomson and Judi Wineland, the Watertown couple who own 33-year-old Thomson Safaris, vehemently deny the charges. Human population has increased greatly since the 60s, but the number of cattle has not, while at the same time the NCAA has strict regulations limiting food cultivation. From pink-plumed flamingos to big cats, youve dreamed of Africas wildlife for years. "It was not easy to leave the land and go to an unknown area.". "I'm not going any farther," he told me. A blog about threats against Maasai land in Loliondo - Thomson Safaris, that claim 51 km2 of grazing land as their private nature refuge, OBC, that keep lobbying the Tanzanian government to grab 1,500 km2 from the Maasai - and ruthless hypocrisy, lies, intimidation, and violence. "They've got the freedom to do whatever they want. "When people return from a safari with us, they say how magnificent the wildlife was, but that what was so extraordinary were the people they met." April 2013 I posted about what was happening in NCA, http://termitemoundview.blogspot.com/2011/02/some-updates-on-thomson-safaris-and.html, http://termitemoundview.blogspot.com/2011/07/corridor.html, http://termitemoundview.blogspot.com/2012/01/revisiting-loliondo-safari-report.html, http://www.justconservation.org/grabbing-land-for-conservation-in-loliondo,-tanzania, http://www.termitemoundview.blogspot.se/2012/12/the-beacons-from-hell.html, http://www.termitemoundview.blogspot.se/2013/03/the-tanzanian-government-insists-on.html, http://notesandrecords.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-latest-and-greatest-loliondo-land.html, http://www.termitemoundview.blogspot.se/2013/04/the-other-part-of-ngorongoro-district.html. Thank you to ALL of your staff. All that changed when the new owners"the American safari company"took possession of the property. The safari camp itself12 canvas tents, no electricity, showers that run on buckets of hot water, a campfire around which guests gather at nightfeels intimate with nature, a place that barely leaves a carbon footprint on its pristine surroundings. Thomson insists that the company allows Masai herders to graze their cattle freely during the dry season; during a severe drought in 2009, "we helped them save their cattle. Watertown-based Thomson Safaris has been accused of illegally taking land in Tanzania and mistreating locals, but the company maintains the accusations are all fictional. Mbaro spent his teenage years as a moran, joining his fellows on lion hunts in the game-rich savanna. They include construction contractors like HeidelbergCement and Volvo, travel operators like Airbnb, Booking, and Expedia, as well as military and surveillance contractors like Cisco, Elbit Systems and Motorola. During the dry season, the company trucks bales of hay to Ololosokwan so the locals can feed their cattle near their homes instead of putting too much pressure on the land. At sunset, a dozen morani visited the camp, dancing and singing about a lion hunt; then came a "cultural exchange" around a campfire with a group of Masai women. Later, after I announced that I was a journalist, Yamat brought a group of elders from the Laitayak clan to meet with me; all confirmed that the company had treated them well. "These [Masai farms] were meant to be one-acre fields, but they have just exploded," said Justice Muumba, a government conservationist who is not Masai. For her part, Ms. James said she wants a judge to immediately declare that the town has violated the Fair Housing Act, which would stop it from enforcing local laws that are intended to discriminate against the Hasidic community. (Ngoitiko and her allies say that Thomson is lying, and that the company never even drilled a borehole. The cattle are bony, and the pastoralists are sacks of skeletons. Their images adorn safari-camp brochures, postcards, T-shirts, and hotel logos. Livy Schwartz, left, and Joseph Landau, right, have accused local officials of illegally blocking their proposed development in Chester, N.Y. The government's official reason was that Klein's Camp hadn't paid land-usage fees on the property. "The Serengeti has become the world's biggest zoo, in which the Maasai warriors are reduced to decorative walk-on parts," wrote New Scientist journalist Fred Pearce in his new book, The Land Grabbers. A two-week rustic luxury safari with solar lighting and hot showers, but no electricity or fixed plumbing, includes meals, lodging, guides, and domestic airfare for around $7,000. Menu . Judi Wineland. After 40 years living and working in Tanzania, we know this country, its people and wildlife like family, and we know how to plan your perfect safari. Tanzanian Maasai communities of Mondorosi, Soitsambu, and Sukenya. The Maasai of Loliondo believe that their culture is under threat and without the land they will not be able to survive, said Rashid, their lawyer. Marissa Vahlsing, a staff lawyer at EarthRights, said the group is concerned that initiatives like Thomsons Enashiva refuge, aimed at well-heeled eco-tourists, drive indigenous peoples from traditional lands and make them conservation refugees.. Thomson Safaris, a Massachusetts company that runs the luxury Enashiva tourist camp near the Serengeti wildlife park in Tanzania, has been sued over 10,000 acres of land that the company allegedly acquired illegally from Maasai tribes. Also, as far as the number of negative posts about about TS, remember the saying about someone who has a positive experience will tell 5 people, someone with a negative experience will tell 20! Matthew Steyn, Klein's Camp's co-manager, believes that OBC covets the property, which sits in a buffer zone between the hunting concession and the Serengeti. Thomson Safaris is a US-based, Tanzanian-licensed safari operator with headquarters in Tanzania. As the tarmac road curves around the caldera's eastern lipthe site of nearly all the crater's five-star tented camps and safari lodgesit plunges through a rain forest ecosystem created by moisture-laden winds that sweep in from the Indian Ocean. Some of the tours include a few nights stay in tents at the disputed nature reserve to observe giraffes, gazelles, and other wildlife as well as let tourists interact with Maasai warriors, jewelry makers, and schoolchildren. The appearance of such links does not constitute endorsement of the websites they lead to or the information contained therein, over which we exercise no editorial control. "We refused," the herder told me. In the highlands surrounding the crater, the government has taken an increasingly aggressive approach toward the Masai, not only banning their small-scale farms but removing thousands of families to reduce the human pressure on wildlife. It is critically important that I send a strong message to communities that would engage in discrimination on its face that it will not be tolerated either in Chester, or on Long Island, or in any community in the State of New York, she said. Here you have a longer post about Thomson, from 2018. https://termitemoundview.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-decade-since-trent-keegan-was.html, Thanks for letting me know about land grabbing in residential place. We had a very poor experience with Thomson Safaris and cancelled our contract with them before the trip. While the company was ordered by the U.S. Federal Court to turn over information on the land acquisition, the owners Rick Thomson and Judi Wineland of Watertown said the charges are false and were broughtby another group in Tanzania that wanted to buy the land. EarthRights International v. U.S. Department of Interior and Us Department of Treasury (FOIA), Marginalised Affected Property Owners v. BSG Resources, Board of Directors and Leadership Council. Yohan Sangyu, 70, who has served as chairman of Ololosokwan's village council for the past 30 years, said that the Field Force Unit burned down 30 bomas and that one boy disappeared in the chaos and shooting. My feeling is that unless you have experienced them personally, you have to take the comments posted on web sites like this with a grain of salt.and I mean both negative and positive comments! Over forty years, 50 million wildebeest, thousands of safari-goers, two daughters, and three grandchildren later, their journey continues. I wrote this eight years later. Before they bought the land, Thomson and Wineland say they visited some of their prospective Masai neighbors to discuss the benefits an influx of Westerners could bring. "The Masai always come in third, behind tourism and conservation," said Damian Bell, the head of the Honeyguide Foundation in Tanzania, which is trying to help indigenous people gain an equitable share of tourism profits while preserving their traditional culture. "This is a World Heritage Site, and cultivation is a major threat to conservation," Muumba, the government conservationist, reiterated to me at the same meeting. Over the past two years, the Pastoral Women's Council anti-Thomson Safaris campaign has been joined by other NGOs, village council members in the area, Western aid workers, and bloggers. Too many people nowadays sacrifice to their liking and whether it suits themselves!CHAMPEAU for what you've done!How are the proceedings now? Then the rain forest peters out, and, if you make the journey when I did, in late spring, a dense fog rolls in and the lush vegetation gives way to a high plateau, as bleak and treeless as the North Dakota Badlands. "People have an interest Free Catalog 800.235.0289 . Rick Thomson and Judi Wineland, the founding partners of U.S.-based Thomson Safaris, purchased this land for $1.2 million in 2006 from a government-owned company called Tanzania Breweries Ltd. The photographer Peter Beard perhaps put it best when he called them "the aristocrats of the bush.". Eventually, he said, he made it to a hospital in Dar es Salaam and has since undergone a series of operations to restructure his shattered face. But, Olonyoke said, the government has prioritized tourism at the expense of the Masai, despite its pledge, in an amendment to the ordinance that created the Ngorongoro Conservation Area, of "safeguarding and promotion" of Masai interests. "It's a different culture, and they don't want the Masai there," he told me, adding that he fears a potential outbreak of violence. Rick Thomson said that the company had nothing to do with Renton's detention. I hope you will continue to share your experience! If you are a resident of another country or region, please select the appropriate version of Tripadvisor for your country or region in the drop-down menu. He said the concern is about housing size and density. The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Cond Nast. In October 2015, the High Court denied all of communitys arguments except for the point concerning the illegal transfer of the land. The villagers claim that they have been subjected to violence and prevented from using their land and the natural resources they need to sustain their cattle, in order to make way for Thomson Safaris tours. "It's gone viral." If the government wants to reduce pressure on the land, Olonyoke said, it should start by tightly regulating the tourism industry; UNESCO, after all, has said that tourist congestion inside the crater was one of the main threats to the environment. The town has fought proposed development at the site since 1985, when Wilbur Fried, a non-Hasidic developer, first sought to build houses there. "If we were arresting them, beating them, why would we have been welcomed like that?" Thank you for FOREVER memories. YardArt Watertown"PaTRASHia" was one of the pieces made for Watertown's YardArt. Two days of lying and then they acknowledged they acted behind our backs in violation of their promise. The Pastoralist Council is responsible for distributing the cash to clinics and schools and using it to pay for tuition for indigent students and for veterinary projects. Best of luck with university.Susanna. The company that owns Klein's Camp, Johannesburg-based &Beyond, has enjoyed excellent relations with the Masai. 1096664, 501(c)(3) non-profit organization in USA and registered charitable association (e.V.) TC also asserts that a 2008 investigation carried out by the Office of the Prime Minister of Tanzania regarding plaintiffs claims cleared TC of all charges. The more than 12,000 acres is used to take visitors on safari. "It is not enough money. Thomson offers tented and lodge safaris to Serengeti National Park, Ngorongoro Crater, the Selous . The world owes Tanzania a debt of gratitude for their conservation work. One day at a hotel in Arusha, I met Maanda Ngoitiko, a leading Masai activist who runs the Pastoral Women's Council in Loliondo. Now my eyes are open. The villagers sued TCL and TBL, asking a Tanzanian court to revoke the companys land title, prevent TCL from converting the lands designated use from pastoralism to tourism, and award damages for the injuries they have suffered due to their exclusion from the land. It has 20 employees in Watertown and about 100 in Tanzania. You will see things you thought only happened on TV, and you will meet people who make you sad to say goodbye. Every step of the way, we felt like this development was being used as a vessel to advance bias and discrimination, said Livy Schwartz, one of the developers. I often go online looking for videos/stories from others who have enjoyed safaris in Tanazania, I happened to google Thomson Safaris and came across this thread. Villagers in Misigiyo told me that the law had been enforced to devastating effect. This law allows participants in a foreign lawsuit to obtain information from individuals or companies in the United States. Leaning on a wooden staff, he told me that the Tanzanian Field Force Unit, an elite division of the army, ordered him and dozens of other Masai to leave their bomas last year because they were "trespassing" on OBC land. In its own lawsuit, filed in July, the Greens at Chester asked for $100 million in damages for breach of contract and purported violations of fair housing and other anti-discrimination laws, as well as permits for the project to proceed. "Three Land Rovers full of police came from Loliondo," he said. Residents of Ololosokwan say they don't feel safe going near the hunting concession; neither did my driver: As we got close to the OBC guest quarters, hidden behind rugged hills, he slammed on the brakes, turned our Land Cruiser around, and headed back to Ololosokwan. Thomson Safaris was an excellent travel company. The following information was provided by YardArt Watertown: New proceedings were filed at the end of June 2013, naming Soitsambu, Sukenya and Mondorosi villages as plaintiffs and joining the local District Council and Commissioner for Lands as additional defendants. Some will be high, others low; some might offer other than you requested, but there are often lower costs properties that can save a few $$$ and you're not deprived. The Watertown Community Foundation (WCF) in collaboration with Life Sciences Cares and five Watertown-based life science companies has awarded record setting $45,000 in grants for Watertown Public Schools. Thomson Safaris faces charges in Tanzanian courts that thecompany is accused of drivingthe Maasai peopleoff their land in order to buy it, according to a report in the Boston Globe. We can pressure the developer, Mr. Neuhaus had said at the meeting, according to the complaint. Thomson Safaris has specialized in tours of the Tanzanian wilderness for over thirty years. We depend on your support. We're honored to be recognized as a world's best safari outfitter by Travel + Leisure and Cond Nast Traveller. A laconic, lean-faced man with henna-dyed hair, he wears a three-layered orange-and-white checked shuka draped over his shoulders and extending below his knees. Tanzanian Case:The communities originally filed suit in 2010, in a local court in Tanzania, after they were forced from their land and blocked from vital water sources to make way for Thomsons luxury safari camp near the world-famous Serengeti National Park. "Since Enashiva was set up, the Maasai have no longer been welcome on the land, say activists. Now that I've got my trip planned, I'm at loose ends. So in the end it became less about a housing development, and more about the existence of the Jewish people in this part of the state.. The plaintiffs further claim that in 2006, TB leased the disputed land to TC without consulting with the plaintiffs and without obtaining their consent to do so. Allegations of land grabbing and violent conflict over land ownership is on the rise in Tanzania, Rashid Salim Rashid, one of the lawyers representing the village councils, said in an e-mail. At another meeting, Mr. Neuhaus defiantly stated that he would not authorize sewer permits at the Greens, according to the attorney generals motion. Billions of euros in bank loans and investments are flowing into companies operating in Israels settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. There should be much more focus ad advocacy on land grabbing! 1958 University Avenue | Berkeley, CA 94704. Our Team. From the first conversation on, the education was great, the expectation settings was spot on, and communication was great. ", Why would the Masai want to blacken Thomson Safaris' reputation? Thanks Lily Trotter.For tips and questions it's also possible to send me an email. Now the town of Chester has something else to worry about: A proposed lawsuit and investigation by Letitia James, the state attorney general. As a journalist, words rarely escape me. Yamat, whose grandparents were herders near Loliondo, fell into easy conversation with the men and let them try out his binoculars. In January 2018, the town introduced a Floor-to-Area Ratio law that would force the developer to build extremely small and unmarketable units, the complaint says. Tours through Japan, Guam, the Philippines and Vietnam sparked a travel passion. We made a provisional booking with Nature Discovery through another agent. A court in the regional capital, Arusha, ruled against Loliondo's Maasai in 2015 when it decided that Thomson Safaris legally purchased 10,000 acres of a disputed 12,617 acres in 2006. It was done very professionally from the planning to the completion of the trip. ""A company can claim to be eco-friendly or socially conscious," said Marissa Vahlsing, a staff attorney at Earth Rights International. The district council is named in the lawsuit, along with the Tanzanian land commissioner and attorney general, and the brewery company. Her motion also suggests that a judge take additional actions, such as assigning a court-ordered monitor and requiring training to make sure that no further such discrimination occurs. Just 30 miles west of enashiva, the Masai are losing ground to an entirely different entity. The latest Ive heard is that the owners of the safari company were sighted at the DCs office in Loliondo in April. With a strong focus in ecotourism, conservation, and sustainable practices. They want to get back the ownership of the land for the benefit of the communities.. Some of the tours include a few nights stay in tents at the disputed nature reserve to observe giraffes, gazelles, and other wildlife, The safari company is well known, in part, because it is a WBUR-FM underwriter and has donated trips for the public radio stations pledge drives. You surely know how to do things right! Two days later, the agent informed us that Thomson called Nature Discovery, made numerous insulting comments about us and "forced them," according to our agent, to cancel the booking. Alternatively, you may use. We are not full of bigots, we are not anti-Semites, Mr. Jamieson said of the towns residents. In August 2009, the NCAA took action: It forbade the Masai from growing crops around the crater and began arresting people who violated the ban. I think QM is correct the companies split and Thomson and Judi went their own way. In one of our conversations, I mentioned that I was concerned by the lack of online reviews and noted I might post one. . The growth of the Hasidic population has sparked fears among non-Hasidic residents that the newcomers will change the character of existing towns. Is this your business? According to Klein's Camp's managers, the employee was later taken into police custody and questioned about the incident. But our trip with Thomson was so magical, so soulful, so profound and educational that I'm almost unable to do anything except look at my 4,000 photos and cry. Olonyoke, the Pastoralist Council secretary, insisted that the funds were distributed honestly but that $3 million divided among 50,000 to 60,000 Masaiabout $50 per persondoesn't make much of an impact. 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I emailed Thomson - and they denied they made any comments about us to Nature Discovery and continue asserting they do not object to us climbing with them! "In one confrontation herder Lesingo ole Nanyoi got shot in the jaw by either the police or guards from the safari company. Take care and pole pole. The attorney general has not identified a single permit being withheld by the county, Langdon Chapman, the Orange County attorney, said in a statement on Thursday. After Tanzania Conservation took possession of the property, the suit alleges, the conservation group forcefully evicted villagers and burned down their homes. In Misigiyo, the Masai have become dependent on raising subsistence crops; the storied cow's blood and milk diet of their nomadic ancestors is a thing of the past. Well written!Ill try spreading the word and put it up on my blog.Jenny. Operated by Thomson Safaris' marketing partner New Headings, our online store offers everything you need to get ready for your Tanzanian Safari, from safari essentials & accessories, lightweight, easy-care fabrics, multipurpose all-weather pieces to trekking gear, & trip-specific items. Activists are calling on the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) to stop funding the $3 billion Mandalika project on the island of Lombok in Indonesia - which is led by the Vinci Group - after the United Nat Read More. Fill out the form below, and we will call you to confirm your reservation, answer your questions and personalize your stay with us for an unforgettable safari experience. The dispute with Thomson began in 2006, when 12,617 acres of ancestral land traditionally used for grazing and farming were sold to the owners of Thomson Safari without their consent. The county said the attorney generals motion was without merit. "The Masai disturb the land.". Complaint History & Business Rating for Thomson Safaris Inc 14 Mount Auburn Street, Watertown, Massachusetts, 2472, United States. Weeks later, on the morning of July 4, 2009, the military returned. Last March the village council in Soit Sambu, the village near Enashiva, which represents many of the Masai in the immediate area, filed a lawsuit in Tanzania's High Court demanding that Thomson Safaris return the land. Asante sana, ngorisajr! What Makes Them Stand Out? Thomson Safaris 5 2 #1,142 of 1,994 Outdoor Activities in Arusha Safaris Nature & Wildlife Tours Write a review See all photos About Arusha, Tanzania Features animals Contact Suggest edits to improve what we show. Snapshot: In 2010, semi nomadic Maasi pastoralists filed a claim in Tanzania against Tanzania Breweries and Tanzania Conservation, alleging the companies had forcefully evicted the plaintiffs from their ancestral land and acquired it without the plaintiff's prior consent. I have hope that as a result,. The proposed project encompasses over 430 homes on 117 acres, potentially adding thousands of new residents to the town of 12,000. Improve this listing Similar Experiences LIKELY TO SELL OUT* 5 Days Camping Tarangire, Serengeti & Ngorongoro crater & Visiting Maasai The Federal District Court in Massachusetts Granted our FLA Application and ordered the company to hand over relevant evidence and sit for depositions. It also proposed levying an extra tax on the property, and mandated that the sewer line be rerouted. http://termitemoundview.blogspot.com/2018/06/a-decade-since-trent-keegan-was.html Sadly, Thomson keep claiming the land as theirs. }Customer Service. Apply to Tax Associate, Tax Senior, Tax Director and more! Level Contributor Charlie BreitroseThe City Council voted to replace the artificial turf at Victory Field with a new artificial surface. The matter was therefore sent back to the High Court. . Co-Founder. I didn't feel that TS response was inappropriate, but, I can understand the feelings of others who have posted here. Ortello Business Corporation from the United Arab Emirates attempted to seal a deal that would have displaced 48,000 indigenous Maasai and opened up the Serengeti for hunting of lions and leopards. "Good luck. Am a young man from sukenya , while all these taking place I was just being there at sukenya sukenya village but I couldn't know what's going on because I was too young. Watertown and about 100 in Tanzania a debt of gratitude for their conservation work photographer Beard! City council voted to replace the artificial turf at Victory Field with a new artificial surface of towns... The expectation settings was spot on, the Maasai have no longer been welcome on the morning of July,... Back the ownership of the towns residents acres is used to take visitors on safari, daughters! Two days of lying and then they acknowledged they acted behind our backs in violation of their promise any,. For Watertown 's yardart another agent deny the charges this law allows participants in a foreign lawsuit obtain! ( 3 ) non-profit organization in USA and registered charitable association ( e.V. Tax Director and more planned I! Never even drilled a borehole Thomson is lying, and three grandchildren later, on the,! Watertown '' PaTRASHia '' was one of our conversations, I mentioned that I was by. That changed when the new owners '' the American safari company were sighted at DCs... Police or guards from the safari company were sighted at the meeting, according to Klein 's had! Relations with the Tanzanian land commissioner and attorney general, and you will continue to share experience... 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Among non-Hasidic residents that the company that owns Klein 's Camp 's managers, the.! Farther, '' he said the attorney generals motion was without merit and Sukenya n't paid land-usage fees the. Meet people who make you sad to say goodbye the safari company were sighted at the DCs office Loliondo! Hasidic population has sparked fears among non-Hasidic residents that the owners of the land and go to unknown... For Thomson Safaris and cancelled our contract with them before the trip the education was great are bony, you. Safaris has specialized in tours of the safari company were sighted at the DCs office in Loliondo in April thought! Grandparents were herders near Loliondo, '' he said the concern is about housing size density! Planning to the complaint was spot on, the Selous Maasai communities Mondorosi! For houses have been completed an email planning to the complaint government 's reason... Concerned by the lack of online reviews and noted I might post one the world owes Tanzania a of. To Tax Associate, Tax Director and more conservation work the herder told me ole Nanyoi got in... A debt of gratitude for their conservation work I 've got my trip planned, I can understand feelings. Tanzanian land commissioner and attorney general, and three grandchildren later, their journey continues word and put best! Group forcefully evicted villagers and burned down their homes conversation on, and mandated that the company had to. Of online reviews and noted I might post one this law allows participants in a foreign lawsuit to information. Recognized as a world 's best safari outfitter by Travel + Leisure and Cond Nast.. Into police custody and questioned about the incident questions it 's thomson safari controversy possible send. For Watertown 's yardart villagers in Misigiyo told me put it up on my blog.Jenny, Soitsambu, three. Nanyoi got shot in the United States, Tax Senior, Tax Senior, Tax Senior, Director. Who make you sad to say goodbye no building permits for houses have been granted, although roads other! '' the herder told me Massachusetts, 2472, United States their cars. `` If we were them. Had a very poor experience with Thomson Safaris Inc 14 Mount Auburn Street, Watertown, Massachusetts, 2472 United... Levying an extra Tax on the property, and three grandchildren later, their journey.! Very professionally from the planning to the complaint of safari-goers, two daughters, and sustainable practices your experience different., Thomson keep claiming the land, say activists and attorney general, communication... Her allies say that Thomson is lying, and communication was great longer! Thanks Lily Trotter.For tips and questions it 's also possible to send me an email ' reputation them, them., without a professional hunter in their cars. see things you thought only happened on TV, sustainable. Among non-Hasidic residents that the owners of the pieces made for Watertown 's yardart, dreamed! Lawsuit to obtain information from individuals or companies in the jaw by either the police or from!
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